Dude of course there was a fire. ?!?!? The question is whether the fire was hot enough to melt steel when people are visible in the huge opening the airplanes made. Fake smoke? Wtf?!? If your parents helped out at ground zero I certainly hope they were wearing filter masks because if not they likely have breathed in a million lifetimes worth of asbestos and mercury.
Disguising hatred and bigotry. Instead of making false red-herring arguments, could you please address the topic? Think of the sequence of events. Planes hit the WTC towers. They mysteriously collapsed (look at the Spain tower fire which burned for over 2 days and NOT collapsing). We're told the fires were so hot the steel girders melted resulting in the total collapse of the buildings. There are images which show people standing in the wall opening which has supposed heat enough to melt steel. I ask how can that be. You call me a biggot and a hater. Make sense? Of course not. Hatred. Hidden. Load' a shite.

I'm going to stop here, Reiki. I have no way of explaining this apparent lack of inferno. But to explain why the Madrid skyscraper did not collapse, perhaps it was because there was no explosion or impact of a commercial jet. The jet fuel would have undoubtedly made the fire worse. Or maybe the WTC just had damning design flaws. I honestly don't know.

Well first off... the pictures may not be clear enough or so far away that we can't tell these poor people were on fire. I think you need to get off your Bush
warpath. TheFazz is right. The Madrid skyscraper may have not collapse because of no explosion or the impact of a jet.
Or it could possibly be that the Spanish have better building techniques than we do. Jeez why dont you try researching your debates before you make a jackass of yourself?

I think you need to get off your Bush warpath.

I do not think that Reiki-House brought up anything about Bush in this.

The WTC and Madrid skyscraper are too different to be accurately compared. The Spanish building was much shorter, so that may have kept it from collapsing.

Two interesting posts that really do give weight to my comment of " It would be nice if Americans could see past the tragedy and hate, And start using their heads."

You call people haters then use derogatory terms that give a away your own hate like Touchy - feely goofballs and Islamic Nutbars. I'm really not offended, It's just Ironic. Two Interesting posts.
What does it say when people jump on a thread and start accusing the poster of conspiracy theories, Smearing Bush's policies and accusing him of suggesting that 9/11 was just a fabrication of American Politics? It means they are just as extreme in their political views as the Islamic Fundamentalists are in theirs. Very sad.
The post never suggested anything about Bush, Bush's Incidious involvment in 9/11 or the tragedy's authenticity. It was about the Whys and Hows of the incident. Not that what they (The Fundamentalists) did was excusable or justifiable, The so called stated reasons for thier "Hate" Of Americans is a little left of center.
Alot of other nations support things Arabs don't, They were never a target. If thier hate of our lifestyle was a reason for an attack, That puts every other Western society under the same attack. No attacks on Holland (Legal use of drugs), Canada (Same sex marriage). America is almost a religious state in their politics in comparison to other Nation's lifestyle. At the end of the day it was America's distaste for their lifestyle that gave rise to War. As for hating you because you have a high standard of living, Well that's laughable. You've obviously never been to Quatar, Kuwait. Saudi, Oman, Jordan, The Emirates or Oman. These countries have a higher level of living and more money than any American could ever hope for.

"What does it matter if the support beams melted in the heat or not? The terrorists slammed two planes into the towers and killed a lot of people. All in the name of hate. But it's okay for them."

So basically aslong as they did it in hate, So can Americans. But we aren't haters.

As for little whips comment, Well, She/He is a typical example of why Americans should let off the hate and start using their heads since the post had absoloutly nothing to do with conspiracies, Film making, special effects or Bush policies.

It's ashame really, You're doing your enemies work for you and destroying yourselves while you squabble amongst each other, channeling all your energy in to a war that had nothing to do with 9/11. Meanwhile the culprit runs free, and I'm guessing, Laughing at you.

It's ashame really, You're doing your enemies work for you and destroying yourselves while you squabble amongst each other, channeling all your energy in to a war that had nothing to do with 9/11. Meanwhile the culprit runs free, and I'm guessing, Laughing at you.

Let me start at the bottom and work my way up....first of all, I agree that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11...I don't deny, though, that Saddam ultimately deserved what he got. I've said enough on my beliefs on this subject on other posts, so I'm not even going to get into it with you. As to "the culprit" running free...he's a hunted beast, always on the move, slinking like Gollum in caves and bunkers rather than going to weddings and happy gatherings with his fellow zealot nutcases. How free is he? If you consider that freedom, I feel sorry for you.

As for little whips comment, Well, She/He is a typical example of why Americans should let off the hate and start using their heads since the post had absoloutly nothing to do with conspiracies, Film making, special effects or Bush policies.

Believe it or not, I've seen things that allude to this very thing, that it wasn't near as bad as it looked, and that Hollywood had something to do with it. Conspiracy theorists will do anything to fuel their freakish attitudes and fears.

So basically aslong as they did it in hate, So can Americans. But we aren't haters

Why else would they have done something so horrific, if not in the name of hate? I didn't have anything aginst them until they did that; I couldn't have cared less what the Islamics did. I don't hate them. They hate me....because I'm American. Why? Who the hell knows? What does it matter now? Will it make it better for them, or me, if I know why they hate me? Will it make it easier for me when I see the mushroom cloud over my city? "Oh, well....it's okay....they used a nuke on us, but it was because-----"
It doesn't matter now. All that matter is their hate of us. That's the key.

You call people haters then use derogatory terms that give a away your own hate like Touchy - feely goofballs and Islamic Nutbars. I'm really not offended, It's just Ironic. Two Interesting posts.

You are touchy-feely goofballs. That's not a hate term. Just because I have an opinion on your attitudes doesn't mean I hate you, though any attack used on a person of liberal attitudes is automatically construed as "hate". It makes it easier for your little minds to grasp, rather than to examine the feebleness and impracticality of your own ideals. You accuse us of closed-mindedness, instead.

What does it say when people jump on a thread and start accusing the poster of conspiracy theories, Smearing Bush's policies and accusing him of suggesting that 9/11 was just a fabrication of American Politics? It means they are just as extreme in their political views as the Islamic Fundamentalists are in theirs. Very sad. The post never suggested anything about Bush, Bush's Incidious involvment in 9/11 or the tragedy's authenticity. It was about the Whys and Hows of the incident.

From this, I can infer that you haven't seen much from Reiki-House in the past. I have.

And they are Islamic nutbars....there are nutcases in any religion. I calls'em as I sees'em. What would you call people who, in the name of their faith, wrap themselves in dynamite and blow up buses? Or hijack planes and fly them into buildings? Or pack explosives into their cars and drive them into populated areas? I'd sure like to know, because I don't.

" It would be nice if Americans could see past the tragedy and hate, And start using their heads."

Sometimes hate can be a useful tool. Would the Second World War have been won if we had just scratched our heads, rubbed our chins and tried to "see past the tragedy and hate"?
No, we hated the Japanese for what they did, and it got us off our asses and, after a little lost effort in the beginning, beat the shit out of them.
The only difference here is, in that war, we had an honorable enemy; a nation-target that stood and fought, to aim our efforts at, rather than a shadow force of cowards who would rather skulk and ambush innocent people than fight.

Yeah, what he said. Have an insightful on me, RW.

Thanks, LW.

Alot of other nations support things Arabs don't, They were never a target. If thier hate of our lifestyle was a reason for an attack, That puts every other Western society under the same attack. No attacks on Holland (Legal use of drugs), Canada (Same sex marriage).

Is Theo Van Gogh alive or dead? Was Holland the the scene of intense peace and calm in the aftermath?

And exactly what would be accomplished by attacking Canada? The US is right next door, and attacking the United States gets more points for the movement.

I do recall plots and attacks on the UK, France, and Italy. The fact remains the contempt for Western society by Moslems is most often manifested in its high crime rate, especially against the native populations.

America is almost a religious state in their politics in comparison to other Nation's lifestyle. At the end of the day it was America's distaste for their lifestyle that gave rise to War. As for hating you because you have a high standard of living, Well that's laughable.

It is laughable. Most Moslems who engage in terrorist activities against the West are college-educated and fairly well-off.

You've obviously never been to Quatar, Kuwait. Saudi, Oman, Jordan, The Emirates or Oman. These countries have a higher level of living and more money than any American could ever hope for.

Obviously YOU have never been to those countries, either that or you've never bothered to learn what really goes on. A high percentage of the population of the countries are actually foreign workers (non-nationals) in the oil industry. The government collects much of the revenue, and doles out the money to the lazy populace. Pretty much like every one of the coutnries you mention, with the exception of Jordan, which is a poor country overall.

Country/GDP
Jordan $4,300
Saudi Arabia $11,800
Oman $13,100
Bahrain $16,900
Kuwait $19,000
Qatar $21,500
UAE $23,200

United States $37,800

"Let me start at the bottom and work my way up....first of all, I agree that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11...I don't deny, though, that Saddam ultimately deserved what he got. I've said enough on my beliefs on this subject on other posts, so I'm not even going to get into it with you."

Your opinion for what It's worth, Is respected. But since your, Shall I say distaste? Instead of hate, For Arabs in general Stems from a personal attack on your country, What did Saddam ever do to you?

"As to "the culprit" running free...he's a hunted beast, always on the move, slinking like Gollum in caves and bunkers rather than going to weddings and happy gatherings with his fellow zealot nutcases. How free is he? If you consider that freedom, I feel sorry for you."

Permit me a bon mot but that's utter bullshit. No one really knows where Bin Laden lives, And if he is as rich as you so put it in your inital reply, He's probably living in a very nicely equipped Cave. Whatever his living conditions are, he is free.

You somehow interpreted this post of mine "So basically aslong as they did it in hate, So can Americans. But we aren't haters"
with a rebuttle that answers why they hate you, And why you should not stand around and wait for a Nuclear Attack. I'll translate the post for you : Don't call others haters and then brandish your own Hate. Simple enough? Btw, And I'm sure you've heard this before, The States is the only Country ever to have used a Nuclear Weapon. So be careful with those pebbles you're throwing.


"You are touchy-feely goofballs. That's not a hate term. Just because I have an opinion on your attitudes doesn't mean I hate you, though any attack used on a person of liberal attitudes is automatically construed as "hate". It makes it easier for your little minds to grasp, rather than to examine the feebleness and impracticality of your own ideals. You accuse us of closed-mindedness, instead"

If I take a bite of an Eclair, Spit it out and say "That was horrible" "That's got to be the crappiest of all pastries" "It's the Donny Osmond of Baked goods" What do you think my Opinion and feelings towards an Eclair is? I don't like it, I loathe it. Using derofatory and belittling words (Terms seems to upset you) like Touchy, Feely Goofbals, Little minds to grasp and Closed Mindedness can really only belive anyone to believe that you dislike them, Maybe not personally but atleast on every other level. You can't have your hate and eat it, Just be honest.


"From this, I can infer that you haven't seen much from Reiki-House in the past. I have."

That was the original reason behind my first post. You judge the post incorrectly, Inferring things in to it's meaning because you've had "Run - Ins" with the poster before. You just don't like him and have labeled him as you did me because he has different ideas from yourself. So how objectional are you really? No more objectional than the Terrorists that you hate so much.


"And they are Islamic nutbars....there are nutcases in any religion. I calls'em as I sees'em. What would you call people who, in the name of their faith, wrap themselves in dynamite and blow up buses? Or hijack planes and fly them into buildings? Or pack explosives into their cars and drive them into populated areas? I'd sure like to know, because I don't."

As there are "Nutbars" in every religion, There are the "Nutbars" in politics. Same game, different battlefield. When America can say that it is as pure as Snow, With no Skeletons in it's closet, Then we can get self righteous with others. Does it make what happened right? No. Just a serious of wrongs that everyone tried to correct with more wrongs, But that's another story for another time.

"Sometimes hate can be a useful tool. Would the Second World War have been won if we had just scratched our heads, rubbed our chins and tried to "see past the tragedy and hate"?"

So you are hateful or aren't hateful? Because that seems to indicate that you're using hate as a tool for Justice. That's not a Judge, That's a Vigillante. WW II was about the preservation of a way of life. The Nazi's wanted to impose thier ideas on the rest of Europe, The rest Europe didn't like that too much. Thus the fighting. If anyone had any reason to HATE the Nazi's it was the jews, But they were being rapidly anihilated in Death Camps. There are many theories that explain why America entered the War. I'm not going to debate you on them all, But the one I most think is true is because after the attack on Pearl Harbour, America was no longer on the side lines. It had been directly hit, And thus went after those that caused them harm. So it really wasn't hate, It was rebuke at a direct hit. We've already agreed that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, So let's not use that analogy.Enough WW II talk.

"No, we hated the Japanese for what they did, and it got us off our asses and, after a little lost effort in the beginning, beat the shit out of them."
You dropped untested Nuclear Bombs on them, Hardly a fair fight. But again, A disscussion for another day.


"The only difference here is, in that war, we had an honorable enemy; a nation-target that stood and fought, to aim our efforts at, rather than a shadow force of cowards who would rather skulk and ambush innocent people than fight."

Lol, Sorry, But you seem to have lost history somewhere. An honorable enemy that loads it's Aircraft with explosives then Plummets the plane, With the pilot inside, In to an enemy target. Suicide bomber anyone? Of course the Japanese called it Kamakaze to make it more appealing. The whole reason America entered the War is because of Pearl Harbour. An attack on an American Base with not only millitary personel, But also their famillies. Loads of Innocent people died.


"And exactly what would be accomplished by attacking Canada? The US is right next door, and attacking the United States gets more points for the movement."

Attack the Power Plants in Quebec, And watch NewYork State collapse in darkness. You're confusing your Superiority complex with Fact.

"It is laughable. Most Moslems who engage in terrorist activities against the West are college-educated and fairly well-off."

And yet Rightwinger was telling us all that they hated Americans because Americans have a better lifestyle. Can we get the Americans to agree on what's what and what's not please.


"Obviously YOU have never been to those countries, either that or you've never bothered to learn what really goes on. A high percentage of the population of the countries are actually foreign workers (non-nationals) in the oil industry. The government collects much of the revenue, and doles out the money to the lazy populace. Pretty much like every one of the coutnries you mention, with the exception of Jordan, which is a poor country overall."

It's not obvious at all. I can atest to that because I lived in the Middle East for 13 Years in all the countries I mentioned plus a few more. I'm talking about the Ameers, the locals of the country. Not the Foriegners they bring in. The average Bey or Shiekh or Ameer's Lifestyle and wealth could very surpass that of Bush himself. The quality of living in these places is to say the least, Lavish. So please, Keep those results you got off Google to yourself untill you can further inquire about the Poster (Me). In most of the countries I've mentioned the Government is actually a Monarchy, And besides things like Zakkat and El-Farida, Wealth distribution is pretty much the same as anywhere else. You go out, You work, Earn a Wage and pay taxes. You've been reading too many Sindbad Novels. It's certainly no worse than the lazy Gits that slober around on wellfare all their life in The States.

"And exactly what would be accomplished by attacking Canada? The US is right next door, and attacking the United States gets more points for the movement." Attack the Power Plants in Quebec, And watch NewYork State collapse in darkness. You're confusing your Superiority complex with Fact.

There have been several major regional blackouts in the US in recent history. There was the blackout which struck the northeast in August 2003. Remember? There was the Great Western Blackout of August 1996, which I experienced firsthand while in Phoenix (I was getting ready for a preseason NFL football game between the Cardinals and the Bengals). Neither of those were catastrophic. "Well they weren't caused by terrorism," you might say. Your hypothetical involves a terrorist attack on a Canadian plant. That probably wouldn't evoke a fearful response on the American psyche...not like a terrorist attack actually within the United States would.

And yet Rightwinger was telling us all that they hated Americans because Americans have a better lifestyle. Can we get the Americans to agree on what's what and what's not please.

There's no reason to believe that contempt for the American lifestyle is not "a" factor. I'm sure Sayyid Qutb wasn't the only one in this category, wouldn't you say?

"Obviously YOU have never been to those countries, either that or you've never bothered to learn what really goes on. A high percentage of the population of the countries are actually foreign workers (non-nationals) in the oil industry. The government collects much of the revenue, and doles out the money to the lazy populace. Pretty much like every one of the coutnries you mention, with the exception of Jordan, which is a poor country overall." It's not obvious at all. I can atest to that because I lived in the Middle East for 13 Years in all the countries I mentioned plus a few more. I'm talking about the Ameers, the locals of the country. Not the Foriegners they bring in. The average Bey or Shiekh or Ameer's Lifestyle and wealth could very surpass that of Bush himself. The quality of living in these places is to say the least, Lavish. So please, Keep those results you got off Google to yourself untill you can further inquire about the Poster (Me).

Now you're trying to rewrite what you said -

You've obviously never been to Quatar, Kuwait. Saudi, Oman, Jordan, The Emirates or Oman. These countries have a higher level of living and more money than any American could ever hope for.

Which is a completely false statement. Now you modified your statement to say that the sheiks and emirs of these countries live extravagant lives that the average American could never enjoy. Well no shit, Sherlock. The richest class of a relatively wealthy oil-producing nation lives better lives than middle class Americans. Mind-blowing revelation, I must say. But that's irrelevant to the what you originally said.

Spare me your anecdotes. I don't give a damn about them. The numbers exist out there for anyone willing to look, and they don't support your original contention. Your experience doesn't turn falsity into fact.

Reiki,

While I don't hold the same positions you do, I DO respect you asking hard questions. I don't personally know what to think about what happened on 9/11; all I DO know is that our government has all the credibility of a seasoned pathological liar and they are just as suspect as the conspiracy theory sites.

Keep posting this kind of information. People need to see it, if only to question.

What did Saddam ever do to you?

Nothing. However, Saddam's actions in 1990 did cause my best friend to be placed in harm's way, as he was in the Marines at the time, and served in the Gulf War. So screw him; the world, and especially Iraq, is better of without him in power. Surely you can't deny that?

Permit me a bon mot but that's utter bullshit. No one really knows where Bin Laden lives, And if he is as rich as you so put it in your inital reply, He's probably living in a very nicely equipped Cave. Whatever his living conditions are, he is free.

"Bon mot"? Why do you libs always seem to think writing like a fru-fru Broadway playwright is a substitute for good arguments? HE'S NOT FREE! He might not be caged like the rabid animal he is, but his movements are certainly resticted compared to what they once were. He might indeed have a well-equipped cave, but it's still a cave, and he has to keep moving between those caves in order maintain that "freedom". Some life.

The States is the only Country ever to have used a Nuclear Weapon. So be careful with those pebbles you're throwing.

I've seen this argument thrown around so much that I'm sick of it. You seem to think we should be ashamed that we did that. Don't be ridiculous. We did what was militarily necessary to end a long and destructive war in the quickest way possible. If a nuke was used on us by terrorists, it would be simply in the name of hate. There is a difference, you know.

If I take a bite of an Eclair, Spit it out and say "That was horrible" "That's got to be the crappiest of all pastries" "It's the Donny Osmond of Baked goods" What do you think my Opinion and feelings towards an Eclair is? I don't like it, I loathe it. Using derofatory and belittling words (Terms seems to upset you) like Touchy, Feely Goofbals, Little minds to grasp and Closed Mindedness can really only belive anyone to believe that you dislike them, Maybe not personally but atleast on every other level. You can't have your hate and eat it, Just be honest.

First of all, I love eclairs. Donny Osmond is a little saccahrine for my taste, but I can take him or leave him.
I don't hate YOU, Kondor; I hate your frame of reference, and I dislike your opinions. I do acknowledge, though, that you're allowed to have them. Islamic zealots do NOT acknowledge this little fact. You're not ALLOWED to disagree with them.
Whether or not you sit there and cheerlead for them, sympathizing with them and seeking to better understand why they want to kill you, won't stop them from killing you. You can't reason with that kind of hate, you can only destroy it before it destroys you.

You just don't like him and have labeled him as you did me because he has different ideas from yourself. So how objectional are you really? No more objectional than the Terrorists that you hate so much.

R-H isn't trying to kill me. Don't equate a fun little debate on JU with terrorist activities against my nation and its people; it doesn't work.

As there are "Nutbars" in every religion, There are the "Nutbars" in politics. Same game, different battlefield. When America can say that it is as pure as Snow, With no Skeletons in it's closet, Then we can get self righteous with others. Does it make what happened right? No. Just a serious of wrongs that everyone tried to correct with more wrongs, But that's another story for another time.

Sure America has skeletons....what nation doesn't? But can you tell me, when did America ever attack another country completely unprovoked? Oh, yes, we're so horrible, with our imperialist attitudes and all....

So you are hateful or aren't hateful? Because that seems to indicate that you're using hate as a tool for Justice. That's not a Judge, That's a Vigillante. WW II was about the preservation of a way of life. The Nazi's wanted to impose thier ideas on the rest of Europe, The rest Europe didn't like that too much. Thus the fighting. If anyone had any reason to HATE the Nazi's it was the jews, But they were being rapidly anihilated in Death Camps. There are many theories that explain why America entered the War. I'm not going to debate you on them all, But the one I most think is true is because after the attack on Pearl Harbour, America was no longer on the side lines. It had been directly hit, And thus went after those that caused them harm. So it really wasn't hate, It was rebuke at a direct hit. We've already agreed that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, So let's not use that analogy.Enough WW II talk.

I never said I was without hate...the only human ever without hate was Jesus Christ. I'm not Him. I hate those who attack my nation and kill its people; who kill innocent, noncombatant people in pursuit of their own goals and ideals. Why is that wrong? That includes innocent Arabs, too, by the way. The mass graves in Iraq are an atrocity on the same level as Auschwitz, if not the same scale. For you seemingly not to agree with me, that the deaths of thousands of innocents for nothing, is an atrocity, too.

You dropped untested Nuclear Bombs on them, Hardly a fair fight. But again, A disscussion for another day.

I already answered this.

Lol, Sorry, But you seem to have lost history somewhere. An honorable enemy that loads it's Aircraft with explosives then Plummets the plane, With the pilot inside, In to an enemy target. Suicide bomber anyone? Of course the Japanese called it Kamakaze to make it more appealing. The whole reason America entered the War is because of Pearl Harbour. An attack on an American Base with not only millitary personel, But also their famillies. Loads of Innocent people died.

I knew you'd misunderstand me here; it was ineveitable. Typically smug attitude, lib.
I know full well, probably better than you, in fact, that the Japanese did loads of things that would be considered less than "honorable". When I said "honorable" what I meant was that they, at least, stood their ground and met us directly on a field of battle, instead of sneaking around and blowing up innocent people. They were not so cowardly.
I do give some credit to the insurgents in Iraq; they might be terrorists, but at least they seem to have the balls to come face those they consider their enemies, instead of killing defenseless women and children in crowded shopping areas. Of course, they also kidnap and kill innocent noncombatants. That's one thing I hate about them.

Try using the "quote" button next time, bud. It'll make your replies easier to read.