" At Auschwitz children were often killed upon arrival. Children born in the camp were generally killed on the spot. Near the end of the war, in order to cut expenses and save gas, cost-accountant considerations led to an order to place living children directly into the ovens or throw them into open burning pits."

"So called camp doctors, especially the notorious Josef Mengele, would torture and inflict incredible suffering on Jewish children, Gypsy children and many others. Patients were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death, and exposed to various other traumas."

"Once Mengele's assistant rounded up 14 pairs of Gypsy twins during the night. Mengele placed them on his polished marble dissection table and put them to sleep. He then proceeded to inject chloroform into their hearts, killing them instantaneously. Mengele began dissecting and meticulously noting each and every piece of the twins' bodies."

"Mengele supervised an operation by which two Gypsy children were sewn together to create Siamses twins. The hands of the children became badly infected where the veins had been resected. Often Mengele injected chemicals into the eyes of children in an attempt to change their eye color."

http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fauschwitz.dk%2FAuschwitz.htm

http://www.deathcamps.info/Auschwitz/Album2.htm

On January 2nd, 1998, David Cole recanted his lies and said that he suffered from self-hatred, which he took out on "his people." See http://www.jdl.org/action/action/cole_letter.shtml

You need to do more research. You could have Googled this.

Reiki - I just want to say before you get your ass banned that you are my new favourite blogger. Your epic smackdowns of Bush supporters ("GAY GRADE FIVE ARGUMENTS" is a personal favourite) and Hubbinsian levels of incendiary prose have been entertaining and informative.

Here's how you will get banned: first the admins will take away "points" from your JU "account" to send the message that your type ain't welcome here.

Next, some of the "Elite Users" (yeah, they actually use this gay grade five terminology for their dittoheads) will take notice of you and HateSwarm you with their jingoistic fanboy drivel. You've already gotten the TOS warning from Karma(The Random Administrator)Girl for expressing irony, that's a new one.

After enough goading from Bush Zombies who are held to a lesser standard of civilized behaviour, you're probably a loose enough cannon to say something that will give the Chief Executive Fanboy of this unfortunate site a (lame) excuse to 86 you. And even if you stay well back from the line, in my case he just made up some bullshit that I posted something anonymously calling him names. That's how the free flow of ideas and civilized discourse work around JoeUser.

Token on-topic take: I have been the the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and the exhibit made a point of noting that the evidence for the gas chambers is not quite as strong as the evidence for the rest of the Nazi atrocities. I am wording this very carefully and won't have much more to say on this because here in Canada we send people who question (not deny, mind you, but question) any aspect of the Holocaust to solitary confinement for two years, declare them a threat to our nation's security, then deport them (see Zundel, Ernest).

Given the serious consequences of questioning anything remotely connected to the Holocaust, I'll just have to take the Jewish Defense League et al at their word; surely they are telling us the whole truth and couldn't possibly have an axe to grind, right?

Problem is, when someone threatens to throw me in jail for even questioning historical stuff it raises a red flag, and the phrase "protest too much" comes to mind.

David St. Hubbins

First I have to say that I find it odd no one can give any type of explanation to the questions posed. Larry, thanks for the input but the response you gave had nothing of substance really. I don't mean to be rude by saying that either. The quotes you posted, while hideous in thought, isn't evidence and/or doesn't refute the questions posed. Children were gassed on arrival. That's accepted as fact. But what of Anne Frank? She was sent to Auchwitz for a couple months and then was transferred to Belsen where she died of typhus. And the other children. Why were they not killed on arrival if it's said that all children were gassed on arrival? Mengele and his experiments on humans. Crime against humanity we all agree. But then what of the ghastly experiments the US performed on their own citizens. What do we say about Project MK-Ultra and the attempt to recreate the human mind through drugs (monstrous doses of LSD and other psychedelics)? Testimonies from the victims indicate that they are still in major pain from the injections and many if not most of them all ended up with major psychological problems. We're talking about a person being forced to listen to the same thing over and over constantly for weeks on end. Not letting them have a routine i.e. meals at different times and light deprivation and other sensory deprivations. It's all well documented, much better documented than what Mengele did at Auchwitz. And I'm not condoning anything. I'm just saying to be human we have to treat things in the same manner. For example, if you punch a wounded Iraqi in the face it's no different than if you punched a wounded American in the face. We're all human. No one is worth more when it comes to basic life.
David thanks I think and I wonder why this should get me banned here. It's reasonable to want to clarify some contradictions. I should not be persecuted for asking these questions. If you're being charged with systematic Zyklon-B mass-murder of people in your hometown would you not want to use the PROVEN lack of Zyklon-B residue on the walls in which the prosecutors are telling the jury you killed oodles and oodles of humans in? Would you not want to tell the jury the evidence against you does not add up? Of course you and we all would. I have no ax to grind and only want answers to these mysteries. I would bet, though, that not a soul here (save for a few possibly) actually knew that Auchwitz has a swimming pool located right next to their living quarters. A swimming pool with a diving board and starter blocks for competition. And a stocked theatre with costumes and a stage and seats for the audience. I have never heard about those facts (pictures have a look) in all my time studying about anything to do with the Holocaust. Never. No one told me that the main gas chamber there has a sewer manhole cover in the middle of the room. (lift lid, jump down, don't breathe the Zyklon-. Not one book told me that there were walls that were taken down by the Russians after the war. Or that the vents on the roof were added after the war. These are all undeniable facts. Documented facts. One cannot hide from these truisms. So why can't we discuss this topic? I notice the interest in the thread is almost nil and I assume it's because it's best hidden in a dark corner of a dark closet rather than out in the open causing discomfort to people who don't want to know any better.

Do the details really matter as long as we learn from the mistakes of the past? I agree that the past is important, but what we REALLY need to do is focus on the future in order to make sure that atrocities like these never happen again. It's too bad our species can't seem to do that, though.

I notice the interest in the thread is almost nil and I assume it's because it's best hidden in a dark corner of a dark closet rather than out in the open causing discomfort to people who don't want to know any better.

No, it's because you put it in History. No one responds to History. I have 2 articles here that got response from only 1 person who already knew I was writing them.

No one responds to history? Lary and David and Latour are nobody? I think it's more like what I think; the details, contradictory or not, are too hot and behind closed doors to ever be freely analyzed. I know we have to focus on the future, but is it not primarily important to find out the true details of what it is we hope never to repeat again? I'm disappointed that there has been absolutely no detailed response that could explain away the stated contradictions. And it's unique. People have no problem discussing the rape of Nanking by the Japanese. And there's no problem discussing Kosovo and the Serbs and Croats and all the other ethnic-cleansing details pertaining to them. Why is it so bad to discuss and analyze and debate what is considered true history when it comes to the Holocaust? We should not be in fear of discussion about any topic let alone what were told is the worst genocide in our history as a species. When we are then to claim we live in a democratic society is a total fabricated lie. What's democracy to us? The ability to live freely and to worship whoever and whatever we choose. CHOOSE. The ability to speak freely and to expect a debatable response on the issues. When you get fired for asking questions, it's not democracy. When you get threatened by a particular group, if you happen to discuss that particular group, it's not democracy. We know it too. That's why people don't take it out of the closet. How could anyone possibly argue that the lack of blue Zyklon-B residue on the gas chamber walls, almost none mind you, is evidence of millions of dead? It's a difficult issue. Like that one guy was saying: it's not debated that the inmates, upon arrival to Auchwitz, were issued new shoes and clothes. So why shouldn't there be piles and piles of people's shoes? It's not argued that, upon arrival at Auchwitz, the inmates heads were shaved to prevent the spread of lice and other disease-carrying parasites. So why shouldn't there be piles and piles of human hair? It's not proof of anything. Right?

Do the details really matter as long as we learn from the mistakes of the past? I agree that the past is important, but what we REALLY need to do is focus on the future in order to make sure that atrocities like these never happen again. It's too bad our species can't seem to do that, though.

I agree with you here.....but, the main problem with this is: our species continues to try and prove that none of it even happened (or, they try to justify the nazi's actions)


And as far as having a discussion about whether or not all of this happened....well, to try to argue that it did, or didn't, to really know, we would have to have been there, right? I know I wasn't....hell, I wasn't even born....my dad wasn't even born then (born in '54).

What it appears you are trying to do, is to downgrade the atrocities that happened to a nuisance on a race (the Jews). It appears that you are saying, "Well, since some of this 'may' not have happened....." Where else can this lead to? "if some may not have happened, then none of it could have happened". (NOTE HERE: I am NOT saying that this is what you are doing, just that it appears that this is what is going on).

But.....as to some of the things you say....so what that there was/is a pool....or a theatre....or even if there was some sort of "currency" used....Just because there was a theatre, doesn't mean that the Germans let the Jews sit comfortably and watch the evening show before they were shuffled off to be put to death.....If anything, I would imagine that those things were there for the Germans themselves, to keep themselves entertained.

Now, also, as to the things that our own country has done to our own citizens.....I think those responsible, should be held responsible for it. I do not think slavery was right...I believe it was wrong to hold africans in slavery (even though many other africans sold them to European/American nations). I believe the US was grossly out of line with how the Native Americans were treated.....They were not cattle to be herded onto reservations and be slaughtered whenever a US military officer had a bad day. I do not think it was right that the US put Japanese-Americans in prison camps during WW2.....

But, I also cannot (and WILL NOT) justify one nation's atrocious actions to humanity because our nation did something either....

This is coming from a conservative republican who is a Christian. So, take this for whatever you want to take it as....But I do not understand the arguement to try and prove that the Germans either didn't do it, or were justified somehow in doing it. And that is what this article appears to be trying to accomplish.

No one responds to history? Lary and David and Latour are nobody?

Of course, I didn't mean that literally. Obviously SOME people respond.

ok Nj. Actually, I was just being literal. Peace.

I haven't commented on this piece, as I haven't been to Auschwitz, and haven't studied the hard evidence for myself. I may dig into this further, to satisfy my own curiousity (I had hoped some people more familiar with the material would have weighed in).

I may disagree with you frequently, reiki, but thank you for posting this piece,if nothing else to give folks something to think about.

thanks and you're welcome.

If anything, I would imagine that those things were there for the Germans themselves, to keep themselves entertained.

Is propaganda out of the question?

Is propaganda out of the question?

Not sure I am following you on this statement....are you viewing my statement as propaganda? or...?

sorry for being slow on this one....

Not sure I am following you on this statement....are you viewing my statement as propaganda? or...? sorry for being slow on this one....

I think he is saying that the facilities were there so that Germany could eventually show the world (once they were victorious) that it was just a detention camp, and not the horror it truly was.

The camps weren't always just Death Camps. They were also Concentration Camps, and Work Camps. They were essentially small villages surrounded by wire and guarded against escape. The inmates lived there for years, sometimes. They brought with them all the customs and traditions of their homes, and all the hopes and fears common to us all. Within those fences, they made the best of life they could. For a time, they were allowed many "luxuries". In the end, though, most of them died anyway.

The theatre, the pool, the special money... all these things are documented. And none of them detract from the horrible fact of the Holocaust itself.

If I pointed out the amenities available to prisoners in Abu Ghraib, you'd be the first to insist these had no bearing on the evil deeds that happened there. If I suggested that since Abu Ghraib had these amenities, perhaps the prisoners weren't really abused so badly after all, nor in such great numbers as we thought, you'd laugh in my face.

The question of the Auschwitz gas chambers and the misplaced Zyklon-B is indeed a mystery. But the fact of the holocaust remains. Where did all those millions of undesireables go, if not to an early grave by German hands? It's not like they re-entered society after the war; we would have noticed. Should we expect an article in the Lancet soon, laying the blame for those missing dead at the feet of the Allies?

Although, I guess this explains why everybody likes to compare Abu Ghraib to Nazi death camps: apparently, the Nazi death camps weren't as bad as we thought...